Thursday, December 08, 2011

Drive Introduction and Chapter 1

Drive by @DanielPink - chat on Introduction and Chapter 1 Thu 12/8

lmhenry9                   I guess let's start with the introduction. What caught your attention? #drivebook

druinok                      @lmhenry9 the idea of the “puzzle” mindset caught me…and when rewarded, they made more errors. #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   @lmhenry9 Well, naturally, the *1st* thing that caught my eye was that he started by talking about motivation with monkeys. :) #drivebook

lmhenry9                   @druinok The last line about the Soma experiment: "Nobody was expecting rewards would have a negative effect." caught my attn. #drivebook

crstn85                       @lmhenry9 I'm here now!  Just read it today and I'm trying to think what this means for the classroom #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   But the 2nd thing that I noticed was the multiplier effect of flow/intrinsic motivation. As a t & as a learner, I find flow key. #drivebook

druinok                      @crstn85 @lmhenry9 I kept thinking about rich problems while reading it... the puzzle mindset, the intrinsic curiosity #drivebook

crstn85                       @lmhenry9   Yea, that was surprising to me at first, but it makes sense to stop working if the reward is removed #drivebook

lmhenry9                   It's funny - I'm really struggling w/the motivation piece right now. My Alg2 students aren't giving effort 2 anything not graded. #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   As a math learner, I find that no amt of #wcydwt or #anyqs holds my attn until I'm in flow w/the basic mathematics. #drivebook #justme?

crstn85                       @lmhenry9  I spent my afternoon coming up with a reward system for my autistic students. Might skip to section on when it works. #drivebook

johnberray               @druinok A sense of guilt came over me for some of the trivial rewards I've given out in the past. #drivebook

lmhenry9                   But my Math 1 students (lower ability 9th) actually do all the test probs - graded or not. #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   @lmhenry9 I can understand yr frustration. I find that extrinsic motiv. doesn't get me ANY LONG-TERM YARDAGE w/middle-schoolers  #drivebook

crstn85                       @cheesemonkeysf So what does have long term success? #drivebook

druinok                      @crstn85 that section (on when it works) is in 2A... it's not often :( #drivebook

lmhenry9                   @johnberray I had that thought too. Glad that I am doing SBG now where I'm only grading each concept - no HW,no extra credit,etc. #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   I find rewards simply DON'T work. What DOES seem to work is when I cultivate curiosity/engagement. This seems to be Pink's msg #drivebook

druinok                      @johnberray me too... made me really sit back and think about papers being awarded points and what the kids get from that #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   @johnberray @druinok Don't feel guilty--it's just what YOU find works. As Henri Picciotto says, n.t. works for e.o. all the time. #drivebook

johnberray               @cheesemonkeysf @lmhenry9 There's always a duality of teaching content & why learning is important in general. #drivebook

druinok                      @lmhenry9 @johnberray I agree - it definitely ties in with #sbar... #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   I find a couple things yield long-term success. 1st is cultivating a positive disposition twd math. #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   Th means a discouraged st must stand a chance of experiencing SOME kind of success -- even if only by participating/being engaged #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   The #1 thing I see among my discouraged s's is how strong & entrenched their defense mechanisms are, psychologically. #drivebook

crstn85                       @cheesemonkeysf Good point, the examples in the book were of easy access, non-threatening puzzles. Need to start simple #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   Many s's come in hunched over in a defensive crouch that doesn't let them open up to the possibility of doing any math/thinking #drivebook

druinok                      I found it fascinating that after getting "paid", the 3rd day w/ no pay, the people weren't curious at all #drivebook

crstn85                       @druinok I think that's the most important message.  It's not just not motivating, it's de-motivating. #drivebook

lmhenry9                   For many of my lower-level stdts, they come 2 class thinking they can't do math b/c they've not done well due to HW being graded. #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   That's why I believe low-stakes  activities w/a slightly familiar UI that are immediately engaging are important #drivebook

johnberray               @druinok I've heard it said that the surest way to kill a joy is to get paid for that experience. #drivebook

druinok                      @johnberray they actually talk about that later... paying people for donating blood #drivebook

crstn85                       @lmhenry9 I'm not sure I see the correlation here. Just because HW is graded they don't do well? #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   If s's come in shut down & defended against engagement, I have to start w/building trust & a kind of a "therapeutic alliance" #drivebook

druinok                      @crstn85 I think it's a good point too w #sbar... after a kid comes from a class where they are "paid", hard to transition #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   What I got from the introduction was that without engagement/intrinsic motivation, there can BE no motivation. #drivebook

lmhenry9                   @crstn85 Teachers in the past put points on just "doing" hw (I was guilty of that). Students choose not to do HW and barely pass. #drivebook

johnberray               @druinok I see. I haven't read the whole book yet. I'm finding it a little difficult to only draw on the 1st 2 sections. #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   @lmhenry9 They also come 2 class believing they can't do math b/c they have been
 publicly shamed before their peers & that sucks. #drivebook

druinok                      @cheesemonkeysf there is still bio and extrinsic motivation... I got from the intro that they had no idea that intrinsic existed #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   @johnberray @druinok I think this is so true. Some of my s's LOVE the knitted dodecahedron on my desk & are amazed that I made it #drivebook

druinok                      @johnberray I think the intro really shows a lot of insight into classrooms though #drivebook

johnberray               @lmhenry9 @crstn85 And many SBG models have to be hybrid models in which homework is counted. I count "Homefun". Guilty. #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   @johnberray @druinok *THEN* then offer to pay me, like, $50 if I'll make one for them. I tell them, NO WAY! #drivebook

crstn85                       @druinok Definitely. I'm not doing #sbar but it's still hard to get kids engaged when they're used to being given the rules #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   BTW, all knitting has screeched to a halt until Winter Break #explainstheknittingsilence #drivebook #dontdespair

druinok                      @cheesemonkeysf @johnberray similar to reading for pleasure & reading for a grade.  I love to read, but was horrible in LangArts #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   @druinok It struck me as a typical business bestseller at 1st in that the biz BS/hype is laid on thick at the beginning. #drivebook

lmhenry9                   I found the discussion about open-source fascinating in Chapter 1. #drivebook

crstn85                       @johnberray @lmhenry9 I count it too. But even pure SBG is about learning until you get the grade for some #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   @druinok I don't think of bio motiv as true "motivation" in that it is biologically programmed in. I found that less convincing #drivebook

johnberray               @crstn85 @druinok In some ways I wish I could shadow my s's through all 4 years of math. Like the Freedom Writers teacher did. #drivebook

crstn85                       @lmhenry9 The analogy to wikipedia was eye-opening. Never thought of that! #drivebook

druinok                      @cheesemonkeysf I've not read many biz books - I was thinking about it more from an #sbar /grading perspective #drivebook

lmhenry9                   @johnberray That would be an interesting concept. #drivebook

crstn85                       @johnberray @druinok We would need to start in Kindergarten for it to be really effective! #drivebook

druinok                      @johnberray as in "looping"? #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   @lmhenry9 The open-source discussion fascinated me too! Evolution of Wikipedia articles is like this. Ppl take it v. seriously! #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   @druinok @johnberray And that's the EXACT problem I face w/my reluctant readers/writers in ELA classes-same as in math. I use SBG #drivebook

johnberray               @crstn85 @druinok Kinde? Yeah. Too many students in my day to really know how they're learning. But SBG is a good step. #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   @druinok Sorry- spent too long in high-tech business world before coming back to teaching. #drivebook

johnberray               @druinok Yes. Although certain students would be a labor of love for 4 years. #drivebook

druinok                      @johnberray some are a labor of love for one year :) #drivebook

lmhenry9                   @johnberray @druinok Some are a labor of love for 1 period. #oneclassatatime #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   @johnberray @lmhenry9 @crstn85 Can't remember what @samjshah calls HW, but he has some hilarious reframing like "Home Enjoyment" #drivebook

lmhenry9                   @cheesemonkeysf @johnberray @crstn85 @samjshah I believe that's correct. #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   It's hard doing #sbar when you come face to face w/the hypocrisy of the system about stuff like HW. I find I can't grade HW #drivebook

druinok                      So how do you promote engagement and intrinsic motivation in the classroom? #drivebook

crstn85                       @cheesemonkeysf I'm still struggling with what I'm teaching- habits vs. content. Plus what grades really represent #drivebook

johnberray               @lmhenry9 @cheesemonkeysf @crstn85 Have you all read Stephen Covey's 7 Habits of Highly Effective People? #drivebook I sense a parallel.

crstn85                       @johnberray No, is it a worthwhile read? #drivebook

johnberray               @crstn85 Yes, indeed. #drivebook

lmhenry9                   @johnberray @cheesemonkeysf @crstn85 I have it- my dad gave it to me when it came out in paperback. Have started it several time. #drivebook

crstn85                       @druinok I try to do a lot of discovery- students experiment, conjecture and prove results rather then getting them from textbook #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   @druinok My 1st rule of engagement is to design so that s's HAVE to be able to get a personal "win" out of an activity #drivebook

johnberray               @druinok Creative hook+well planned activities that run on s's dev intrinsic motivation. #drivebook

johnberray               @lmhenry9 @cheesemonkeysf @crstn85 7 Habits: opens with Personality Ethic vs. Character Ethic. Extrinsic vs. Intrinsic. #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   @druinok Intrinsic motiv requires that I surprise & delight s's so they'll be willing to renegotiate their relationship w/math #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   @johnberray @lmhenry9 @crstn85 It's funny-I read Covey & it never spoke to me #drivebook #bornarebelisuppose

crstn85                       @johnberray Well planned is key. Sadly few books have this all already set up. I'm experimenting on them while they experiment! #drivebook

johnberray               @cheesemonkeysf @druinok Bingo! But the system needs me to be something it can replicate. And it can't. #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   @johnberray @druinok @crstn85 But with creative hooks/discovery activities, aren't we trying to create on-ramps to flow? #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   @johnberray @druinok Wait, what did I/we say that sounded good? #drivebook

johnberray               @crstn85 That hook is the bridge to invite them in. My high school has a masterful history teacher who does this. @burgessdave. #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   @crstn85 @johnberray The difficulty is that if a hook isn't authentically hook-ish for *me* individually, I can't force it 4 kids #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   @crstn85 @johnberray I agree completely. And "well-planned" is different than "written by a control freak." #drivebook

johnberray               @cheesemonkeysf @druinok I fancied the "surprise and delight" part. #drivebook

crstn85                       @cheesemonkeysf Yes. If I'm not interested in a topic I have a hard time teaching it, have to find a cool problem worthy of time #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   @johnberray @crstn85 Exactly! Getting them to (a) accept the invitation & (b) relax re using the on-ramp is a giant behav. change #drivebook

burgessdave            @johnberray @crstn85 Thanks, John! Sorry to be late to the party! #drivebook

johnberray               @cheesemonkeysf @crstn85 "well planned" sometimes means "able to go off script" because teacher knows intimately the content. #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   @johnberray @druinok Glad that resonated. Surprising & delighting them is the only on-ramp to engagement I've found that works. #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   @crstn85 That was my problem w/the "reform" curricula I tried working with last yr. Most of the prob's didn't speak to me. #drivebook

johnberray               @cheesemonkeysf @druinok Can we call a hook an intrinsic motivator? It seems like both in a way. #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   @johnberray @crstn85 *And* also can "read" his or her class/audience #drivebook #somedaysmathteachingislikedoingstandupcomedy

lmhenry9                   (1/2) When Pink was talking about the idea Motivation 2.0, I kept thinking about how some people in union prominent areas (here) #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   @johnberray @crstn85 Some reform curricula present lessons too rigidly structured for one type of understanding #drivebook #mightjustbeme

crstn85                       I think teachers absolutely must be flexible. Someone said we have to make the most decisions per min, bar air traffic control. #drivebook

johnberray               @cheesemonkeysf @crstn85 Being able to read" udience is the nemesis of a green teacher. Super important. #drivebook

burgessdave            #drivebook agree with you @johnberray about ability to go off script. Must be able to take advantage of teachable moment

lmhenry9                   (2/2) seem to be chasing the $ but everyone loses. People aren't as productive (u can't do that - contract) & neither is the co. #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   @johnberray @druinok I think a hook is only an **on-ramp** to intrinsic motiv. The motivation need to come from w/in #drivebook #literalist?

lmhenry9                   Where I live is very pro-union (not just for teaching) & it just seems like so many things come down to the contract. #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   @johnberray @crstn85 Being able to "read yr audience" is 1 of the keys to success in life generally, IMHO! #drivebook

crstn85                       @cheesemonkeysf That's why I like CME- good combination of traditional and reform. #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   @lmhenry9 Didn't they try the giant salaries/bonuses as extrinsic motiv for t's...only to find it doesn't work? #drivebook #ohthosepeskydata

lmhenry9                   What happened to people doing things or doing them until they were "right" or "best" rather than worrying about the contract? #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   @lmhenry9 I understand what you mean re things coming dn to the contract. Does this affect how you teach in classrm? #drivebook

johnberray               @lmhenry9 Contract IS a problem. And so is however many thousands of minutes we say a s has to have for credit. #drivebook

crstn85                       @lmhenry9 We're in our 2nd year without a contract here. It's an issue whenever someone wants to try something new! #drivebook

lmhenry9                   @cheesemonkeysf I don't let it affect me in the classroom. But I have watched people doing/not doing things b/c of the contract #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   @lmhenry9 That's where I think getting s's into a state of flow comes in -- #drivebook

johnberray               @cheesemonkeysf @lmhenry9 I think it plays out in others saying no to doing/being more as a team.  #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   -- Students have to TASTE that exper of losing themselves in the quest to figure something out. Then it builds on itself #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   @lmhenry9 That's been my sense of you from reading yr blog. I admire your courage to experiment & see what unfolds. #drivebook

johnberray               @cheesemonkeysf @lmhenry9 I think the best teachers today are the mavericks who will not settle if others won't help. #drivebook

crstn85                       @johnberray The intrinsically motivated ones! #drivebook

lmhenry9                   @cheesemonkeysf I'm just so tired of hearing about "contract" says... Sometimes you just need to do what's best for students/team #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   @johnberray @lmhenry9 I'm DEFINITELY with you there. Willingness to be a maverick is key to improving, in my view. #drivebook #imweirdthough

maxmathforum      This #drivebook chat is such a neat conversation. Mind if I join even if I haven't read the book?

lmhenry9                   @cheesemonkeysf @johnberray I'd be inclined to agree with you. #drivebook

lmhenry9                   @maxmathforum By all means. #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   1 reason I like designing activities around SBG-type skills is that I can use them regardless of what curriculum/fad is mandated #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   @maxmathforum Definitely! I say, never let a lack of doing the reading stifle your creativity. ;-) #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   @maxmathforum Come on in -- the water's fine! :) #drivebook

crstn85                       @cheesemonkeysf I was very happy I'd done that when I moved schools & all my materials still applied. A good problem always works #drivebook

lmhenry9                   @crstn85 That's a wonderful bonus! #drivebook

maxmathforum      #drivebook I was intrigued by the question of if a "hook" can lead to intrinsic motivation.

johnberray               @crstn85 @cheesemonkeysf @lmhenry9 @druinok @burgessdave Gotta run! Dinner awaits. Pleasure hanging out with you all. #drivebook

maxmathforum      #drivebook I was just writing a stats lesson around the question "is my nose freakishly large" -- is that intrinsically motivating?

crstn85                       @maxmathforum perhaps we can only hope students will be intrinsically motivated if we offer them a hook? #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   There's a great quote re how, if you can't find the culture you need & if you build it yourself -- #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   -- others will magically appear and declare that they've been looking for this very same culture! #drivebook

maxmathforum      @crstn85 so a hook is necessary but not sufficient? #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   @crstn85 @maxmathforum I truly believe a great "hook" can only be an inviting "on-ramp" for s's. You can lead a horse to water... #drivebook

crstn85                       @maxmathforum I feel like we're talking about the "you can lead the horse to water.." issue here.  Ha! You typed it faster.  #drivebook

lmhenry9                   @cheesemonkeysf @crstn85 @maxmathforum This is a great thought. Just have to find the right "hook" for some things. #drivebook

crstn85                       @maxmathforum Been struggling with this lately- progress reports due today so considering how much I should chase kids down etc. #drivebook

maxmathforum      @lmhenry9 @cheesemonkeysf @crstn85 my best criteria for hooks is what the heck made someone come up with this in the first place?#drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   @crstn85 @maxmathforum Great minds are all on the same wavelength! #drivebook

maxmathforum      @crstn85 Guess it depends too on what else is going on... what s's are used to, outside stresses, their interests #drivebook

maxmathforum      @crstn85 was observing a good math class today but 6 kids in the back were totally distracted by a burning, non-math issue #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   @maxmathforum @lmhenry9 @crstn85 I like that criterion. I also like looking at where, developmentally, a concept is coming from #drivebook

maxmathforum      @crstn85 specifically, why there are so few racist jokes about white people compared to jokes about people of color. It's a gd ? #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   @maxmathforum @crstn85 Also on how shut down (or whether) the s's are. To me a hook is necessary but not sufficient #drivebook

crstn85                       @maxmathforum I've had a couple issues lately stemming from dating/breaking up. You have to be really interesting to beat that! #drivebook

cheesemonkeysf   I hate to leave this conversation, but I just got a text that my burrito is ready! My burrito calls -- literally! 'Night for now! #drivebook

maxmathforum      @crstn85 In my dream school/class it's ok to take a mental health day when that kinda stuff is going on #drivebook.

crstn85                       @cheesemonkeysf Yes, sometimes you need a hook that doesn't look like math.  #drivebook

maxmathforum      @crstn85 maybe part of understanding motivation is understanding when life is more important than math class! #drivebook

crstn85                       @crstn85 And that has to be the case.  Back to teachers being flexible. #drivebook

lmhenry9                   I will archive #drivebook later tonight or tomorrow. Any thoughts on when you want to do Chapter 2?

maxmathforum      @crstn85 and the need for flexible systems to support them #drivebook

crstn85                       @lmhenry9 This time slot was good for me. Any day but Wednesday is okay. #drivebook

lmhenry9                   Should we look at next Thursday (12/15) 8p est for next #drivebook? Then take a break for the rest of December?

maxmathforum      @lmhenry9 I'll try to read the 2 chapters of #drivebook by then. Or just absorb y'all's wisdom!

cheesemonkeysf   @lmhenry9 Next Thurs 12/15 8 pm ET/5pm PT sounds good to me for next #drivebook! And a break! woo-hoo!

cheesemonkeysf   @maxmathforum @crstn85 AMEN TO THAT. #drivebook #mentalheathdaysaregood

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