lmhenry9 I
guess let's start with the introduction. What caught your attention? #drivebook
druinok @lmhenry9
the idea of the “puzzle” mindset caught me…and when rewarded, they made more
errors. #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf @lmhenry9
Well, naturally, the *1st* thing that caught my eye was that he started by
talking about motivation with monkeys. :) #drivebook
lmhenry9 @druinok
The last line about the Soma experiment: "Nobody was expecting rewards
would have a negative effect." caught my attn. #drivebook
crstn85 @lmhenry9
I'm here now! Just read it today and I'm
trying to think what this means for the classroom #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf But the 2nd
thing that I noticed was the multiplier effect of flow/intrinsic motivation. As
a t & as a learner, I find flow key. #drivebook
druinok @crstn85
@lmhenry9 I kept thinking about rich problems while reading it... the puzzle
mindset, the intrinsic curiosity #drivebook
crstn85 @lmhenry9 Yea, that was surprising to me at first, but
it makes sense to stop working if the reward is removed #drivebook
lmhenry9 It's
funny - I'm really struggling w/the motivation piece right now. My Alg2
students aren't giving effort 2 anything not graded. #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf As a math
learner, I find that no amt of #wcydwt or #anyqs holds my attn until I'm in
flow w/the basic mathematics. #drivebook #justme?
crstn85 @lmhenry9 I spent my afternoon coming up with a reward
system for my autistic students. Might skip to section on when it works.
#drivebook
johnberray @druinok
A sense of guilt came over me for some of the trivial rewards I've given out in
the past. #drivebook
lmhenry9 But
my Math 1 students (lower ability 9th) actually do all the test probs - graded
or not. #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf @lmhenry9 I
can understand yr frustration. I find that extrinsic motiv. doesn't get me ANY
LONG-TERM YARDAGE w/middle-schoolers
#drivebook
crstn85 @cheesemonkeysf
So what does have long term success? #drivebook
druinok @crstn85
that section (on when it works) is in 2A... it's not often :( #drivebook
lmhenry9 @johnberray
I had that thought too. Glad that I am doing SBG now where I'm only grading
each concept - no HW,no extra credit,etc. #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf I find
rewards simply DON'T work. What DOES seem to work is when I cultivate
curiosity/engagement. This seems to be Pink's msg #drivebook
druinok @johnberray
me too... made me really sit back and think about papers being awarded points
and what the kids get from that #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf @johnberray
@druinok Don't feel guilty--it's just what YOU find works. As Henri Picciotto
says, n.t. works for e.o. all the time. #drivebook
johnberray @cheesemonkeysf
@lmhenry9 There's always a duality of teaching content & why learning is
important in general. #drivebook
druinok @lmhenry9
@johnberray I agree - it definitely ties in with #sbar... #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf I find a
couple things yield long-term success. 1st is cultivating a positive
disposition twd math. #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf Th means a
discouraged st must stand a chance of experiencing SOME kind of success -- even
if only by participating/being engaged #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf The #1 thing
I see among my discouraged s's is how strong & entrenched their defense
mechanisms are, psychologically. #drivebook
crstn85 @cheesemonkeysf
Good point, the examples in the book were of easy access, non-threatening
puzzles. Need to start simple #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf Many s's
come in hunched over in a defensive crouch that doesn't let them open up to the
possibility of doing any math/thinking #drivebook
druinok I
found it fascinating that after getting "paid", the 3rd day w/ no
pay, the people weren't curious at all #drivebook
crstn85 @druinok
I think that's the most important message.
It's not just not motivating, it's de-motivating. #drivebook
lmhenry9 For
many of my lower-level stdts, they come 2 class thinking they can't do math b/c
they've not done well due to HW being graded. #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf That's why I
believe low-stakes activities w/a
slightly familiar UI that are immediately engaging are important #drivebook
johnberray @druinok
I've heard it said that the surest way to kill a joy is to get paid for that
experience. #drivebook
druinok @johnberray
they actually talk about that later... paying people for donating blood
#drivebook
crstn85 @lmhenry9
I'm not sure I see the correlation here. Just because HW is graded they don't
do well? #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf If s's come
in shut down & defended against engagement, I have to start w/building
trust & a kind of a "therapeutic alliance" #drivebook
druinok @crstn85
I think it's a good point too w #sbar... after a kid comes from a class where
they are "paid", hard to transition #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf What I got
from the introduction was that without engagement/intrinsic motivation, there
can BE no motivation. #drivebook
lmhenry9 @crstn85
Teachers in the past put points on just "doing" hw (I was guilty of
that). Students choose not to do HW and barely pass. #drivebook
johnberray @druinok
I see. I haven't read the whole book yet. I'm finding it a little difficult to
only draw on the 1st 2 sections. #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf @lmhenry9
They also come 2 class believing they can't do math b/c they have been
publicly shamed before their peers & that
sucks. #drivebook
druinok @cheesemonkeysf
there is still bio and extrinsic motivation... I got from the intro that they
had no idea that intrinsic existed #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf @johnberray
@druinok I think this is so true. Some of my s's LOVE the knitted dodecahedron
on my desk & are amazed that I made it #drivebook
druinok @johnberray
I think the intro really shows a lot of insight into classrooms though
#drivebook
johnberray @lmhenry9
@crstn85 And many SBG models have to be hybrid models in which homework is
counted. I count "Homefun". Guilty. #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf @johnberray
@druinok *THEN* then offer to pay me, like, $50 if I'll make one for them. I
tell them, NO WAY! #drivebook
crstn85 @druinok
Definitely. I'm not doing #sbar but it's still hard to get kids engaged when
they're used to being given the rules #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf BTW, all
knitting has screeched to a halt until Winter Break #explainstheknittingsilence
#drivebook #dontdespair
druinok @cheesemonkeysf
@johnberray similar to reading for pleasure & reading for a grade. I love to read, but was horrible in LangArts
#drivebook
cheesemonkeysf @druinok It
struck me as a typical business bestseller at 1st in that the biz BS/hype is
laid on thick at the beginning. #drivebook
lmhenry9 I
found the discussion about open-source fascinating in Chapter 1. #drivebook
crstn85 @johnberray
@lmhenry9 I count it too. But even pure SBG is about learning until you get the
grade for some #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf @druinok I
don't think of bio motiv as true "motivation" in that it is
biologically programmed in. I found that less convincing #drivebook
johnberray @crstn85
@druinok In some ways I wish I could shadow my s's through all 4 years of math.
Like the Freedom Writers teacher did. #drivebook
crstn85 @lmhenry9
The analogy to wikipedia was eye-opening. Never thought of that! #drivebook
druinok @cheesemonkeysf
I've not read many biz books - I was thinking about it more from an #sbar
/grading perspective #drivebook
lmhenry9 @johnberray
That would be an interesting concept. #drivebook
crstn85 @johnberray
@druinok We would need to start in Kindergarten for it to be really effective!
#drivebook
druinok @johnberray
as in "looping"? #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf @lmhenry9
The open-source discussion fascinated me too! Evolution of Wikipedia articles
is like this. Ppl take it v. seriously! #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf @druinok
@johnberray And that's the EXACT problem I face w/my reluctant readers/writers
in ELA classes-same as in math. I use SBG #drivebook
johnberray @crstn85
@druinok Kinde? Yeah. Too many students in my day to really know how they're
learning. But SBG is a good step. #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf @druinok
Sorry- spent too long in high-tech business world before coming back to
teaching. #drivebook
johnberray @druinok
Yes. Although certain students would be a labor of love for 4 years. #drivebook
druinok @johnberray
some are a labor of love for one year :) #drivebook
lmhenry9 @johnberray
@druinok Some are a labor of love for 1 period. #oneclassatatime #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf @johnberray
@lmhenry9 @crstn85 Can't remember what @samjshah calls HW, but he has some
hilarious reframing like "Home Enjoyment" #drivebook
lmhenry9 @cheesemonkeysf
@johnberray @crstn85 @samjshah I believe that's correct. #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf It's hard
doing #sbar when you come face to face w/the hypocrisy of the system about
stuff like HW. I find I can't grade HW #drivebook
druinok So
how do you promote engagement and intrinsic motivation in the classroom?
#drivebook
crstn85 @cheesemonkeysf
I'm still struggling with what I'm teaching- habits vs. content. Plus what
grades really represent #drivebook
johnberray @lmhenry9
@cheesemonkeysf @crstn85 Have you all read Stephen Covey's 7 Habits of Highly
Effective People? #drivebook I sense a parallel.
crstn85 @johnberray
No, is it a worthwhile read? #drivebook
johnberray @crstn85
Yes, indeed. #drivebook
lmhenry9 @johnberray
@cheesemonkeysf @crstn85 I have it- my dad gave it to me when it came out in
paperback. Have started it several time. #drivebook
crstn85 @druinok
I try to do a lot of discovery- students experiment, conjecture and prove
results rather then getting them from textbook #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf @druinok My
1st rule of engagement is to design so that s's HAVE to be able to get a
personal "win" out of an activity #drivebook
johnberray @druinok
Creative hook+well planned activities that run on s's dev intrinsic motivation.
#drivebook
johnberray @lmhenry9
@cheesemonkeysf @crstn85 7 Habits: opens with Personality Ethic vs. Character
Ethic. Extrinsic vs. Intrinsic. #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf @druinok
Intrinsic motiv requires that I surprise & delight s's so they'll be
willing to renegotiate their relationship w/math #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf @johnberray
@lmhenry9 @crstn85 It's funny-I read Covey & it never spoke to me
#drivebook #bornarebelisuppose
crstn85 @johnberray
Well planned is key. Sadly few books have this all already set up. I'm
experimenting on them while they experiment! #drivebook
johnberray @cheesemonkeysf
@druinok Bingo! But the system needs me to be something it can replicate. And
it can't. #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf @johnberray
@druinok @crstn85 But with creative hooks/discovery activities, aren't we
trying to create on-ramps to flow? #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf @johnberray
@druinok Wait, what did I/we say that sounded good? #drivebook
johnberray @crstn85
That hook is the bridge to invite them in. My high school has a masterful
history teacher who does this. @burgessdave. #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf @crstn85
@johnberray The difficulty is that if a hook isn't authentically hook-ish for
*me* individually, I can't force it 4 kids #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf @crstn85
@johnberray I agree completely. And "well-planned" is different than
"written by a control freak." #drivebook
johnberray @cheesemonkeysf
@druinok I fancied the "surprise and delight" part. #drivebook
crstn85 @cheesemonkeysf
Yes. If I'm not interested in a topic I have a hard time teaching it, have to
find a cool problem worthy of time #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf @johnberray
@crstn85 Exactly! Getting them to (a) accept the invitation & (b) relax re
using the on-ramp is a giant behav. change #drivebook
burgessdave @johnberray
@crstn85 Thanks, John! Sorry to be late to the party! #drivebook
johnberray @cheesemonkeysf
@crstn85 "well planned" sometimes means "able to go off
script" because teacher knows intimately the content. #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf @johnberray
@druinok Glad that resonated. Surprising & delighting them is the only
on-ramp to engagement I've found that works. #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf @crstn85
That was my problem w/the "reform" curricula I tried working with
last yr. Most of the prob's didn't speak to me. #drivebook
johnberray @cheesemonkeysf
@druinok Can we call a hook an intrinsic motivator? It seems like both in a
way. #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf @johnberray
@crstn85 *And* also can "read" his or her class/audience #drivebook
#somedaysmathteachingislikedoingstandupcomedy
lmhenry9 (1/2)
When Pink was talking about the idea Motivation 2.0, I kept thinking about how
some people in union prominent areas (here) #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf @johnberray
@crstn85 Some reform curricula present lessons too rigidly structured for one
type of understanding #drivebook #mightjustbeme
crstn85 I
think teachers absolutely must be flexible. Someone said we have to make the
most decisions per min, bar air traffic control. #drivebook
johnberray @cheesemonkeysf
@crstn85 Being able to read" udience is the nemesis of a green teacher.
Super important. #drivebook
burgessdave #drivebook
agree with you @johnberray about ability to go off script. Must be able to take
advantage of teachable moment
lmhenry9 (2/2)
seem to be chasing the $ but everyone loses. People aren't as productive (u
can't do that - contract) & neither is the co. #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf @johnberray
@druinok I think a hook is only an **on-ramp** to intrinsic motiv. The
motivation need to come from w/in #drivebook #literalist?
lmhenry9 Where
I live is very pro-union (not just for teaching) & it just seems like so
many things come down to the contract. #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf @johnberray
@crstn85 Being able to "read yr audience" is 1 of the keys to success
in life generally, IMHO! #drivebook
crstn85 @cheesemonkeysf
That's why I like CME- good combination of traditional and reform. #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf @lmhenry9
Didn't they try the giant salaries/bonuses as extrinsic motiv for t's...only to
find it doesn't work? #drivebook #ohthosepeskydata
lmhenry9 What
happened to people doing things or doing them until they were "right"
or "best" rather than worrying about the contract? #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf @lmhenry9 I
understand what you mean re things coming dn to the contract. Does this affect
how you teach in classrm? #drivebook
johnberray @lmhenry9
Contract IS a problem. And so is however many thousands of minutes we say a s
has to have for credit. #drivebook
crstn85 @lmhenry9
We're in our 2nd year without a contract here. It's an issue whenever someone
wants to try something new! #drivebook
lmhenry9 @cheesemonkeysf
I don't let it affect me in the classroom. But I have watched people doing/not
doing things b/c of the contract #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf @lmhenry9
That's where I think getting s's into a state of flow comes in -- #drivebook
johnberray @cheesemonkeysf
@lmhenry9 I think it plays out in others saying no to doing/being more as a
team. #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf -- Students
have to TASTE that exper of losing themselves in the quest to figure something
out. Then it builds on itself #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf @lmhenry9
That's been my sense of you from reading yr blog. I admire your courage to
experiment & see what unfolds. #drivebook
johnberray @cheesemonkeysf
@lmhenry9 I think the best teachers today are the mavericks who will not settle
if others won't help. #drivebook
crstn85 @johnberray
The intrinsically motivated ones! #drivebook
lmhenry9 @cheesemonkeysf
I'm just so tired of hearing about "contract" says... Sometimes you
just need to do what's best for students/team #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf @johnberray
@lmhenry9 I'm DEFINITELY with you there. Willingness to be a maverick is key to
improving, in my view. #drivebook #imweirdthough
maxmathforum This
#drivebook chat is such a neat conversation. Mind if I join even if I haven't
read the book?
lmhenry9 @cheesemonkeysf
@johnberray I'd be inclined to agree with you. #drivebook
lmhenry9 @maxmathforum
By all means. #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf 1 reason I
like designing activities around SBG-type skills is that I can use them
regardless of what curriculum/fad is mandated #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf @maxmathforum
Definitely! I say, never let a lack of doing the reading stifle your
creativity. ;-) #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf @maxmathforum
Come on in -- the water's fine! :) #drivebook
crstn85 @cheesemonkeysf
I was very happy I'd done that when I moved schools & all my materials
still applied. A good problem always works #drivebook
lmhenry9 @crstn85
That's a wonderful bonus! #drivebook
maxmathforum #drivebook
I was intrigued by the question of if a "hook" can lead to intrinsic
motivation.
johnberray @crstn85
@cheesemonkeysf @lmhenry9 @druinok @burgessdave Gotta run! Dinner awaits.
Pleasure hanging out with you all. #drivebook
maxmathforum #drivebook
I was just writing a stats lesson around the question "is my nose
freakishly large" -- is that intrinsically motivating?
crstn85 @maxmathforum
perhaps we can only hope students will be intrinsically motivated if we offer
them a hook? #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf There's a
great quote re how, if you can't find the culture you need & if you build
it yourself -- #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf -- others
will magically appear and declare that they've been looking for this very same
culture! #drivebook
maxmathforum @crstn85 so
a hook is necessary but not sufficient? #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf @crstn85
@maxmathforum I truly believe a great "hook" can only be an inviting
"on-ramp" for s's. You can lead a horse to water... #drivebook
crstn85 @maxmathforum
I feel like we're talking about the "you can lead the horse to
water.." issue here. Ha! You typed
it faster. #drivebook
lmhenry9 @cheesemonkeysf
@crstn85 @maxmathforum This is a great thought. Just have to find the right
"hook" for some things. #drivebook
crstn85 @maxmathforum
Been struggling with this lately- progress reports due today so considering how
much I should chase kids down etc. #drivebook
maxmathforum @lmhenry9
@cheesemonkeysf @crstn85 my best criteria for hooks is what the heck made
someone come up with this in the first place?#drivebook
cheesemonkeysf @crstn85
@maxmathforum Great minds are all on the same wavelength! #drivebook
maxmathforum @crstn85
Guess it depends too on what else is going on... what s's are used to, outside
stresses, their interests #drivebook
maxmathforum @crstn85
was observing a good math class today but 6 kids in the back were totally
distracted by a burning, non-math issue #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf @maxmathforum
@lmhenry9 @crstn85 I like that criterion. I also like looking at where,
developmentally, a concept is coming from #drivebook
maxmathforum @crstn85
specifically, why there are so few racist jokes about white people compared to
jokes about people of color. It's a gd ? #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf @maxmathforum
@crstn85 Also on how shut down (or whether) the s's are. To me a hook is
necessary but not sufficient #drivebook
crstn85 @maxmathforum
I've had a couple issues lately stemming from dating/breaking up. You have to
be really interesting to beat that! #drivebook
cheesemonkeysf I hate to
leave this conversation, but I just got a text that my burrito is ready! My
burrito calls -- literally! 'Night for now! #drivebook
maxmathforum @crstn85 In
my dream school/class it's ok to take a mental health day when that kinda stuff
is going on #drivebook.
crstn85 @cheesemonkeysf
Yes, sometimes you need a hook that doesn't look like math. #drivebook
maxmathforum @crstn85
maybe part of understanding motivation is understanding when life is more
important than math class! #drivebook
crstn85 @crstn85
And that has to be the case. Back to
teachers being flexible. #drivebook
lmhenry9 I
will archive #drivebook later tonight or tomorrow. Any thoughts on when you
want to do Chapter 2?
maxmathforum @crstn85
and the need for flexible systems to support them #drivebook
crstn85 @lmhenry9
This time slot was good for me. Any day but Wednesday is okay. #drivebook
lmhenry9 Should
we look at next Thursday (12/15) 8p est for next #drivebook? Then take a break
for the rest of December?
maxmathforum @lmhenry9
I'll try to read the 2 chapters of #drivebook by then. Or just absorb y'all's
wisdom!
cheesemonkeysf @lmhenry9
Next Thurs 12/15 8 pm ET/5pm PT sounds good to me for next #drivebook! And a
break! woo-hoo!
cheesemonkeysf @maxmathforum
@crstn85 AMEN TO THAT. #drivebook #mentalheathdaysaregood
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