Thursday, June 16, 2011

Understanding by Design Chapter 2 - #sbarbook Thursday 6/16/2011

  lmhenry9                Who's here for Chapter 2 of #sbarbook?
gwaddellnvhs       @lmhenry9 I am here for #sbarbook

mathsfeedback    Me, I'm here, in Hong Kong. :) @lmhenry9 Who's here for Chapter 2 of #sbarbook?

lmhenry9                @mathsfeedback What time is it there right now? #sbarbook

mathsfeedback    @lmhenry9 It's 9:30 am on Friday. I'm not teaching right now. Earlier this week I missed our discussion. #sbarbook

lmhenry9                @mathsfeedback That was my guess, but I wasn't certain. Glad you could join us for #sbarbook!

lmhenry9                I know @druinok mentioned that the last chapter of #sbarbook hit her hard - this one kicked my rear pretty hard.

lmhenry9                @Scott_Schaefer The whole coverage issue. I am so guilty of it and it really kicked my a$$ about it. #sbarbook

mathsfeedback    Yes, so much to think about. I feel really challenged. #sbarbook

druinok                    @lmhenry9 I'm here!! #sbarbook

Scott_Schaefer    @lmhenry9 Why was this chapter hard? #sbarbook

lmhenry9                There's so much stuff we're supposed to "cover" - especially for Algebra 2. I'm guilty of trying to get through what I can. #sbarbook

druinok                    This chapter of #sbarbook really hit some of the ideas we've been working on with the idea of rich problems, etc

lmhenry9                @Scott_Schaefer That's a gross understatement. #sbarbook

Scott_Schaefer    @lmhenry9 They hit coverage pretty hard.  I liked on pg. 44 "We can never have enough time." #sbarbook

mathsfeedback    @lmhenry9 @Scott_Schaefer I liked the quote saying, "let the main ideas be few, important, thrown into every combo possible" #sbarbook

mathsfeedback    @Scott_Schaefer @lmhenry9 So, since there's not enough time, why act as if there is? Cover only most important things. (cf. ch1) #sbarbook

lmhenry9                pg. 43 "And what few educators seem to realize, therefore, is that drilling students for state tests is a *failing* strategy." #sbarbook

druinok                    @lmhenry9 I think the coverage issue is a common one in secondary #sbarbook

gwaddellnvhs       @druinok @lmhenry9 #sbarbook I forget to do the tak sometimes. My process of Alg2 curriculum rewriting following UbD.

lmhenry9                And even though we're not covering for the state test necessarily - we are covering for the next class (vertically). #sbarbook

druinok                    Doing something correctly... is not.. evidence of understanding #sbarbook

lmhenry9                @jrykse That section hurt the most for me. #sbarbook

Scott_Schaefer    I think to combat over-coverage, the assessment piece is key.  Pg 49 1st paragraph: Evidence of understanding... #sbarbook

gwaddellnvhs       @druinok #sbarbook I liked the quote on pg 48. "A person who has understanding can cope far better than others with ambiguous challenges..."

lmhenry9                @mathsfeedback @Scott_Schaefer And at the end of the chapter, it seems to clue us that in Ch 3 it will help us with that. #sbarbook

druinok                    @gwaddellnvhs yeah, I already have two spots in #sbarbook that I have marked as a spark for a blog post :)

lmhenry9                @jrykse This is in your department you're referring to, right? #sbarbook

druinok                    @lmhenry9 re: coverage - "Attempts to cover too many topics too quickly may hinder learning" - found this as interesting idea #sbarbook

mathsfeedback    @druinok That challenged me to design fewer repetitive recall tasks. Instead I need to force (encourage) students to do transfer. #sbarbook

eduz8                       @lmhenry9 #sbarbook but covering for next class is just feeding the same pattern.

lmhenry9                @mathsfeedback @druinok I need to encourage transfer as well. Not sure how to go about that yet - hoping #sbarbook will help there.

Scott_Schaefer    @jrykse I also find the hesitation interesting.  In my department, we have been directed to cover less, but some push back. #sbarbook

lmhenry9                @eduz8 I realize that now. #sbarbook

mathsfeedback    @lmhenry9 I'm not seeing  @jrykse's tweets. Please use #sbarbook so we can all follow along. :) Thanks.

druinok                    the part that kicked me in the rear was on pg 41 - "It is not a new problem.. if it is exactly like the others..with new quant." #sbarbook

lmhenry9                @jrykse I can see that hesitation, though. I've taught Algebra 2 for 15 of my 19 years and I'm not totally sure what I'd choose. #sbarbook

druinok                    Knowledge and skill.. are necessary elements of understanding, but not sufficient in themselves #sbarbook *guilty* :(

mathheadinc         @druinok That's like when a student says x+ 1/4=3/5 is different form x+14=35. The method to solve is the same. #sbarbook

druinok                    @eduz8 agreed re: covering for next class - but the future teachers do have expectations #sbarbook

gwaddellnvhs       @druinok @eduz8 at some point we have to rock the boat, heck overturn the boat and do it. #sbarbook. Change is hard, doing nothing is harder

mathheadinc         @druinok The problem always "changes" when fractions are involved! :D #sbarbook

eduz8                       @druinok #sbarbook helps if next teacher is on same page as you, but if you believe sticking with big ideas help learning...

Scott_Schaefer    @druinok Remember that knowl/skills are necessary.  Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. #sbarbook

gwaddellnvhs       @jrykse Today, we talked about how upset some of our fellow teachers are going to be. Our decision was, we don't care. #sbarbook

lmhenry9                @jrykse Even with Common Core as a guide, I still find it hard. Esp. since Alg1 teacher isn't going over stuff I need for Alg2. #sbarbook

eduz8                       @gwaddellnvhs @druinok #sbarbook I don't think it is turning over, perhaps just paddling slower with more purpose.

druinok                    @eduz8 I don't disagree - playing devil's advocate :) #sbarbook

druinok                    @mathheadinc LOL - darn those fractions! :)  #sbarbook

druinok                    @gwaddellnvhs the change idea reminds me of @lmhenry9's workshop this week re: change #sbarbook

mathheadinc         @druinok I KNOW! I need to make my students pay me a dollar for every time they say that! #sbarbook

druinok                    @Scott_Schaefer :)  so true!  but that should not be where we stop either... we need the understanding/problem solving #sbarbook

druinok                    I found the pythag theorem examples (and results) really sad :(  #sbarbook

gwaddellnvhs       @eduz8 depends on the people in the boat with you. Sometimes the shock of cold water is what they need. #sbarbook

lmhenry9                @gwaddellnvhs How many of your math staff is doing UbD? #sbarbook

druinok                    Re: coverage - I had never thought about the issues with prior knowledge as related to coverage issues #sbarbook

lmhenry9                @druinok That was really sad. But it made the issue clearer for me. #sbarbook

gwaddellnvhs       @lmhenry9 #sbarbook 6 out of 14 are officially doing it. I am teaching another this summer on Alg2. She is a newish teacher and amazed.

mathsfeedback    Surprised that coverage is not only inefficient but also harmful to stus' ability to learn in "more sophisticated ways later" #sbarbook

druinok                    @mathsfeedback agreed - I never realized the inefficiency of coverage until they broke it down #sbarbook

eduz8                       @gwaddellnvhs #sbarbook while I like support, I am not sure it matters here. Ubd argument as I undstnd is that it will lead to more learning

gwaddellnvhs       #sbarbook the paragraph that really kicked me hard was pg 55, 2nd to last. "We have to be able ... through our teaching and learning."

druinok                    fav quote: "We cannot cover concepts & expect them to be understood; we have to uncover their value" #sbarbook

lmhenry9                I'm hoping that as crappy as I feel right now about the coverage issue that by the time we're done w/ #sbarbook I'll feel a whole lot better

lmhenry9                @druinok I highlighted that one also. #sbarbook

lmhenry9                @gwaddellnvhs I have parts of that paragraph marked also. #sbarbook

Scott_Schaefer    WRT coverage, in college basic genetics was taught 3 different times in 3 different classes.  Understanding wasn't even expected. #sbarbook

druinok                    @lmhenry9 for me, the kick in my pants was about the problem solving and rich problems issue :(  too much drill :( #sbarbook

druinok                    I think one of the hardest things that will come up is the assessment of application and problem solving #sbarbook

lmhenry9                @druinok Same here. But you and I have at least talked about remedying that more this year in our classes. #sbarbook

lmhenry9                RIght now a good part of UbD is looking real hard to me at the moment. I'm assuming as I read more and do it, it will be easier. #sbarbook

Scott_Schaefer    @druinok that will be the fun part!  It will be making math real.  Lots of stuff in the assessment chapters. #sbarbook

druinok                    @lmhenry9 exactly - and after reading this, definitely more motivated to make sure that happens this year! #sbarbook

gwaddellnvhs       @jrykse Guess it's a "speak up or stay quiet" kind of thing then. Unfortunately, the complainers never stay quiet. The good pp do. #sbarbook

mathsfeedback    @lmhenry9 Yes, I'm also feeling pleased to examine my practice more closely. And find others who want to change how they teach! #sbarbook

lmhenry9                @jrykse At least at the end of this chapter, they said that it would be discussed in chapter 3. Not as long to wait. #sbarbook

druinok                    @Scott_Schaefer I look forward to it!!! #sbarbook

eduz8                       @lmhenry9 #sbarbook I think it will be hard for me for a while. Habits and mindset are for me to change.

gwaddellnvhs       @lmhenry9 I agree. In my district it's a 2 year commitment to do the training. They do 2 years to break it into manageable chunks. #sbarbook

druinok                    @lmhenry9

lmhenry9                @gwaddellnvhs I can see why they may ask you to make a 2 yr commitment. But like @jryske, I can't want to get to the good stuff! #sbarbook

druinok                    @gwaddellnvhs @lmhenry9 I think that is the key - we are reading it and processing it, but will take time to implement fully #sbarbook

lmhenry9                @eduz8 I think habits & mindset are hard for everyone to change. I've been teaching 19 years - lots of habits/mindsets to change! #sbarbook

gwaddellnvhs       @jrykse searching for "common misconceptions in mathematics" brings up quite a lot of research in google. #sbarbook

lmhenry9                Well, they certainly make a good case for making changes in how we do our craft, don't they? #sbarbook

druinok                    @lmhenry9 most definitely!  #sbarbook

mathsfeedback    And if we all (maths teachers) share our tasks which test for transferable understanding, we could have quite the collection. #sbarbook

druinok                    Did anyone else notice that the theory they were quoting was from 50+ years ago - sad that it hasn't been implemented wide-scale #sbarbook

lmhenry9                @druinok I caught that also - they quoted Polya (How You Solve It) and lots of "old time" education theorists. #sbarbook

mathsfeedback    Incredible. But reassuring, too, not a new fad. RT @druinok Did anyone notice that theory they were quoting was from 50+ years ago #sbarbook

gwaddellnvhs       @mathsfeedback What sucks is there is a place to do that! #sbarbook but they charge to use it!

lmhenry9                @gwaddellnvhs Probably even more of a case for putting together a UbD wiki... #sbarbook

lmhenry9                @jrykse @mathsfeedback @druinok That is really a valid point. All things old become new again? #sbarbook

mathsfeedback    Thinking that maths assessments in the UK for 14 year olds are actually not that routine. GCSEs are terrible recall tests, though. #sbarbook

lmhenry9                @jrykse I would revise your tweet to say maybe if we *fully* implemented... #sbarbook

eduz8                       @druinok I think creating projects that also require evidence of skills and knowledge will be challenging. #sbarbook

gwaddellnvhs       @mathsfeedback I do post things I create on my website. I also have other teachers materials as well. #sbarbook

mathsfeedback    @lmhenry9 @gwaddellnvhs Do you get access to when you buy the UbD book? (I'm using library copy.) #sbarbook

lmhenry9                @mathsfeedback I don't think so. #sbarbook

lmhenry9                @mathsfeedback Is there *any* standardized test that is "good"? #sbarbook

mathsfeedback    @lmhenry9 KS3 tests, they are called. Questions are all contextual.Examples: #sbarbook

gwaddellnvhs       @mathsfeedback #sbarbook not that I am aware of. My district uses it in a for credit training, and they don't buy the access for us.

lmhenry9                Any last thoughts for Chapter 2 in #sbarbook?

gwaddellnvhs       @lmhenry9 I think I am tapped. #sbarbook. It really is about the ability to transfer understanding. And thinking hard about measuring that.

lmhenry9                And I think we *all* have a lot to think about after the first two chapters of #sbarbook.

mathsfeedback    @gwaddellnvhs @lmhenry9 What does "tapped" mean? #sbarbook

druinok                    @lmhenry9 I think I am good - I have a lot to think about though :) #sbarbook

lmhenry9                How do Mon 6/20 (Ch 3) and Thu 6/23 (Ch 4) look for y'all for #sbarbook? Still 9:30p est.

lmhenry9                RTing: How do Mon 6/20 (Ch 3) and Thu 6/23 (Ch 4) look for y'all for #sbarbook? Still 9:30p est.

eduz8                       @gwaddellnvhs @lmhenry9 #sbarbook measuring seems hard. Projects for understanding seems messy while lists of skills seem neat. Doesn't fit.

gwaddellnvhs       @lmhenry9 Those days and times are great for me. #sbarbook

lmhenry9                @gwaddellnvhs I'll post the conversation as I have been once we're done. #sbarbook

fourkatie                 Wow! I was hoping to jump into the latest #sbarbook when I got out from under the end of the year, but you guys will be 4 chapters by then.

gwaddellnvhs       @lmhenry9 Oops, sorry I will miss chap 3 (northern NV math council meeting) but be there for chap 4. #sbarbook

mathsfeedback    Thanks for a great discussion, everyone, and for leading, @lmhenry9 #sbarbook

lmhenry9                Well, hearing no major objections, we'll plan on Ch 3 Mon 6/20 at 9:30p est and Ch 4 Thu 6/23 at 9:30p est. #sbarbook

lmhenry9                @fourkatie Jump in wherever you can - we'd love to have you again at #sbarbook

lmhenry9                Thanks for a good discussion everyone! #sbarbook

lmhenry9                I'll post the transcript of tonight shortly and I set aside a page on my blog with all the transcripts from this #sbarbook if you missed it.

gwaddellnvhs       @lmhenry9 Yes, thank for leading the discussion Lisa! #sbarbook

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